108 vs 110 lobe separation

106 LSA: The overlapping is higher as 106 LSA is comparatively tighter LSA than 110 LSA. " - Voltaire. The final cam was tighter still, with a 108-degree LSA. Everyone has a different idea of gentle.While its true that the duntov cam may seem rough in a 283 it is still a factory offering and they never go to radical on there profiles for street cars.If you want a rough idle, try a 283 with a .550'lift roller and 13.5 to 1 compression,THATS ROUGH. Cam swaps are all the rage and for good reason. JavaScript is disabled. While a cam with a 108 lobe center will idle rougher. For example, an oval-track small-block that needs to motivate the car off the turns quickly might have a narrow LSA of around 106 degrees, resulting in more overlap. If two cams are identical with the exception of lobe separation angle (we'll say 108 and 114) the cam with 114LSA will make more low end power than the 108LSA cam? Ed JTO learn to park Joined May 31, 2009 180 Posts Similarly, 110 LSA is also found to be a more fabulous performer in several mechanical aspects. But for small-block Chevys (like the LS applications in this story), the LSA is ground into the cam. Another difference between the two involves the power curve. Although both wide (112-116) and narrow (102-110) lobe separation angles do have an effect on overlap, it's still possible to get a lot of overlap with very wide lobe separation angle cams. GRIND #: CRB3 3194 /3196 HR111. For large port heads like the CNC 044's which can use the extra lift 1.4's make a noticable difference. in some cases,, the average torque can equal out. A cam 112LSA with 4 degrees advance puts the intake centerline at 108 degrees. Ultimately, it comes down to how you want the engine to run, the car's intended purpose, and what you are willing to tolerate. 106 LSA: So, if I talk about the powerband at 106 LSA, the powerband is narrow. 4-linked72, what cam are you using that has a 108 LSA? 554"/577" lift. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. by SStrokerAce Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:22 am, Post Say you have a cam ground on a 115 and the other on a 110. Howards Cam Vs Comp Cam: Which Is The Best Option For You? Lucky for us, Brian Tooley Racing stepped up with a dual spring package that allowed us to safely run our 0.624-lift cam. The Wastegate works by releasing the pressure built inside, Read More What Are The Wastegate Stuck Open Symptoms?Continue, Oops! I though my car would have a nice rough idle with the solid cam with a tight LSA I put in my car, its go a slight lope to it, but it pulls hard. The Crane has a smoother idle, broader power band, and . Frontal lobe epilepsy (FLE), the second most common focal epilepsy syndrome after temporal lobe epilepsy (TLE), is frequently drug-resistant and MRI-negative. = Moderately Tight 106-104 Deg. that is why people running 112 or 114 lobe centres retard the cam ,that way the exhaust event is back were it was before .this helps in exhaust valve tempatures--anyway today i talked too barry who is the owner of shadbolt cams and we talked about cam lobe centres -he considers 108 centre quite narrow and for a very narrow power band operation ,with a 112 he figures with the carbs with straight & even runs at the valves there should be no noticable loss of low end power, a 112 lobe would be a great choice for a great street strip motor -better lower torque followed with a flatter rising torque curve as well as rpm range extended 500-700 rpm -. . I am pretty sure, right now, you find yourself in the middle of the rising debate of 106 vs 110 lobe separation angle. In general, a stock replacement camshaft with duration of less than 200 degrees will have a lobe separation angle of more than 114 degrees. Increased overlap improves upper RPM power. The custom cams we selected all featured 0.624-inch lift (both intake and exhaust) and a 232/242-degree duration split. i have a 4 bolt 351C, stock bore, 10.5 cr with 351C Boss heads ,boss crank and rods. Brul slid the 113-LSA cam, the widest of the test, into the engine's heart and set about putting all the pieces back in place. Wide LSA cams are also applicable in forced-induction applications where less exhaust overlap is required. The world of fuel injection is where wide LSA cams like the 113 really shine. Like choosing a cam in general, the key to eliminating separation anxiety is to find the proper balance of driveability and performance. I'm surprized at these questions as well as some of the replies. " A 232 deg duration cam with a 108 deg LCA will have the same valve overlap as a 236 deg cam with a 110 deg LCA and idle will probably be very similar. When degreeing in the camshaft, you are making sure the intake centerline is precisely where the cam is intended to be. Noah knows a lot about whats happening in the car industry with the latest piloting productions thanks to his professional experience. These numbers can vary a few inches one way or the other, depending on several other aftermarket factors and your individual engine specifications, so you may want to check your vacuum once the cam is installed. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. I've heard similar cams (only about 5*'s off) and they have a nice rumble to them. Build your own custom newsletter with the content you love from EngineLabs, directly to your inbox, absolutely FREE! As you tighten the centers ( 108 ) the same engine will make MORE power through the mide range and top end. It also depends on what the vehicle will be used for and if economy and vacuum are important. 110 LSA: On the contrary, 110LSA has a higher piston-to-valve clearance rate. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. However, it is fixable. It affects the amount of valve overlap; that is the brief period of time when both the intake and exhaust valves are open.. Come here to talk with others who like to drive fast. Despite no changes in lift or duration, this cam sounded much more aggressive than the other two with wider LSAs. But, you may find a lobe wider than a 120-degree angle in any car engine.But, I must let you know that those are customized car engines prepared for any special purpose, such as racing, drag racing, off-road riding, or performing stunts. Builds More High-RPM Power Increase Piston-Intake Valve Clearance Decrease Piston-Exhaust Valve Clearance EFFECTS OF CHANGING LOBE SEPERATION ANGLE (LSA) Tighten (smaller LSA number) Moves Torque to Lower RPM Increases Maximum Torque Narrow Power band Builds Higher Cylinder Pressure Increase Chance of Engine Knock Increase Cranking Compression A cam's lobe separation determines where and for how long peak torque occurs in an engine's rpm range. Lobe separation angle does. Torsion Beam Vs Multi Link: Who Wins the Battle? Armed with more information on camshaft theory, what will you build? The 110o will make more power overall. Some prefer a narrow powerband, and some prefer the broader one. So, choose the perfect lobe separation angle for your engine, complying with the requirements of your needs. That is no accident. A wider LSA moves intake- and exhaust-valve events farther apart and creates less overlap, which hurts intake-wave tuning. To demonstrate changes to lobe separation in action, we ordered three camshafts from Comp Cams, all ground with identical lift (0.541 intake and 0.537 exhaust) and duration (230 intake and 236 exhaust) but with three different LSAs: a 101, a 107, and a 113. Moreover, a user from the Chevelle forum said. Overlap is the amount of time that both valves are open in the same cylinder. such as 290 @.050? So, now you, Read More Chevy Transmission Wont Shift Into 3rd: Finding the Main CulpritContinue, While changing the oil on your boats lower unit, you may need to change the drain plug, too. For any additional clarification or questions please contact our Tech Line at 714 523-0530. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57gfBu8uc6k&t=1s. Meaning the lower lobe seperation will have a very quick and fast powerband (Snappy!) Epilepsy is a chronic noncommunicable brain (neurological) disorder associated with excessive neuronal activity and unprovoked seizures referred to as 'epileptic seizures' and sensory-motor deficits that cause neurobiological, cognitive, psychological, and social consequences to the patient. The tighter the lobe separation angle, the peakier the power curve will be, confirms Bolander. Aluminum flywheel & pullies. ALL bolts are ARP. With minimal overlap and a steady manifold vacuum signal, they work great with fuel-injection systems and are the norm on modern pushrod engines, such as the LS and Gen III hemi. If you're an OEM automaker looking for a steady idle, good fuel economy, and passing tailpipe emissions, this is the cam of choice. LS Exhaust Manifold Bolt Torque (Everything You Need To Know), Holley Power Valve Sizes: Everything There is to Know. I'm sorry to disagree with that incredibly well written article, but lobe separation by itself is absolutely freaking meaningless. Looking at 108vs. Aeromotive; 913.647.7300; AeromotiveInc.com, AFR Heads; 661.257.8124; AirFlowResearch.com, Federal Mogul/Felpro; 248.354.7700; FederalMogul.com, Mahle; 248.347.9700; Mahle-Aftermarket.com, Scat Enterprises; 310.370.5501 ScatEnterprises.com, SuperFlow Dynamometers and Flow Benches; 515.254.1654; SuperFlow.com. i think a little more torque will be good for my car.With the XE274 it was a little slugish until around 3000 rpms. VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. Hopefully it turns out great. The same is true for intake valve closing. Big strokers like tighter LCA but it really depends on your combo and usage, theres great OTS cams but for a custom engine a custom cam is the way to go With identical cam lobes you won't see a bit of difference. by 3V Performance Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:38 pm, Post My engine shop builds all kinds of hot rod motors, and they told me that because I am running a 4 speed manual, I will better be able to take advantage of the 108 LSA. But, at 106 LSA, the cranking compression may increase above the standard PSI level. Camshaft: Hydraulic Roller, Comp Cam custom grind (ADV Duration 281-287,@ .050 230-236, lift 622I & 625E w/1.6 rockers.) The piston and cylinder damage possibility is pretty low at 110 LSA. Cam and Lifters, Hydraulic Roller Tappet, Advertised Duration 282/288, Lift .589/.600, Chevy, Big Block, Kit. This table will create a map in your head, and I bet it will make your understanding crystal clear. The lobe separation angle or LSA is the angle in camshaft degrees between the maximum lift points, or centerlines, of the intake and exhaust lobes. You must log in or register to reply here. . After the next three pulls, it was clear the 113 cam was way down on low-end torque. If the intake valve opens too early, it will push the new charge into the intake manifold. After spending 8 years in plant production engineering, Noah wanted to join Engine Addiction as a key member of all cars specific guides, reviews, repairs, suggestions, and more. I've seen that Webcam cams can be ordered with either of the above. Come join the discussion about restoration, modifications, NOS parts, troubleshooting, VIN codes, and more! However, finding them might be challenging if you dont have any prior knowledge. Nitrous engines, which make plenty of power and torque, often run wide lobe separation angles to moderate cylinder pressures and temperatures. Usually, this separation angle ranges from 95-degree to 120-degree. I do believe that stock VW seperation is 108 and 112 is used alot in turbo and midrange cams for VW's while 106 is used for the top end cams. It a 355. thanks in advance. Vintage/Classic/Historical Engine Tech, 3V Performance Engine & Valve train Development, Race Cars & Parts - For Sale or Wanted. Cylinder-head flow and LSA are directly related: as a rule of thumb, the better the head flows, the wider the LSA can be. 68 Mustang, 306, AFR 185\'s, CI cam, FPA\'s, Bigs 650 DP, T5Z, 9" w/4.33's. The other thing is that you can make more power with a smaller aftermarket cam. Turbochargers are not as simple as they may sound; you may think of them only as power-boosting components. At a lower LSA, the engine reaches the peak of the torque earlier than the standard time but generates a lower RPM.On the contrary, at a higher LSA, the engine reaches the peak torque at a higher resistance level and generates a bulk number of RPM. It affects the powerband and temperament of a motor more than any other single part, and a slight change can turn a car from a mild-tempered grocery-getter to a downright nasty machine. you cannot just take a random change in a lobe separation angle and say 1 is better than the other. I will be running an Edelbrock Performer RPM, with a Quick Fuel 750cfm with a screw adjustable vacuum secondary; it's called the Pro-vac. = Moderate 108-106 Deg. dont sound like a verry street friendly motor butany thoughts? One segment that truly benefits from a wider LSA is the marine marine market. As lobe seperation spreads does the powerband. Copyright 2022, S&S Motorsports LLC, All Rights Reserved - Powered by, http://www.webcamshafts.com/cam_glossary.html, http://www.newcovenant.com/speedcrafter haft/3.htm, Webcam 86A 108LC w/1.5 vs 86B 112LC w/1.3s. somthing to that aspect. 112 will have a smoother idle, a wider power band, and will work better with fuel injection. This causes the engine's street manners and tuning to become fickle. To illustrate the differences offered by changes in the LSA, we had Crane cams grind us three cam profiles that shared the same lift and duration figures, but differed only in the LSA. The SAME can be said. A 112 LSA would be better if I had an automatic, but the engine builder (who has built many, many drag racing engines)told me I would have much faster acceleration with the 108, at the expense of a broader power band of course, but that 108 would not unduly penalize me for the street. 110 LSA) and Crane's #341191 (238/248, .563"/.587", 114 LSA), display considerably different characteristics. To reiterate another point, I realize that wider LSAs tend to broaden the power band, but for a car I would like to bracket race a bit, as well as enjoy on the street, I was told that a narrower LSA will help the car accelerate at a faster rate. 110 LSA: However, if you look at the rate of cranking compression at 110 LSA, you will find a reduced compression rate from the standard cranking compression PSI level. Performance Distributors Keeps The Spark Alive With SOS, A New Diesel Piston That Increases Power And Reduces, Shop Tour: Brian Tooley Racing Expands To Be A One-Stop, Melling Offers New Timing Kits for Ford 4.6L and 5.4L SOHC, Reborn Retro Blower Packs Positive-Displacement Power For Fox, EngineLabs Tool Of The Month: Summit Racing Lb-In Torque, Why You Should NOT Emissions Delete Your Diesel, Can A Cold Air Intake Really Help Your Trucks, Ask The Expert: We Want Your Questions For Canton Racing, The Answers: DeatschWerks Responses To Your Fuel System, SEMA 2022: GEARWRENCH Leveled Up With Distinct Quality Hand, EngineLabs Tool Of The Month: Summit Racing AN Wrench, HOLY SHIP! Kevko baffled oil pan & Milidon windage tray. Again, these are general bits of conventional wisdom. by Marc Mon May 12, 2003 11:38 am, Post Like one cam is 112 degree and the next is 108 the 108 cam will allow less "leakage"? The tighter the lobe center, the lower the RPM range; the wider the lobe center, the higher the RPM range. Frankly cams with a 108-114 lca unless in the perfect combo you won't usually see more than 15hp and you won't really feel the difference except for either a peaky or broad power band. The takeaway is simple on the surface: A tighter LSA makes more low-end and peak torque at the expense of just a few top-end ponies. ~These are just some of the drawbacks weas guys who like to go mach 10 with our hair on fire and these little motors screaming at rpms that make other guys cryhave to deal with.~. 106 LSA: The scale of efficient compression rises at 106 LSA. Anybody do any real testing on LSA in a 3.75 stroke small block chevy?I have always used 104-106 and was thinking about trying a 108 or 110 design.I know there is a lot of variables but just a general opinion from any experts.This is for motor only no nitrous.600-640 HP engine combos.Much appreciated! The final, 108-degree cam stepped power up even further, with peaks of 572 hp at 6,300 rpm and 544 lb-ft at 5,200 rpm. 1966 Toyota Landcruiserunder construction. That notion is completely false. by flat4racer17 Tue May 13, 2003 9:12 pm, Post Split duration/lift only helps when your intake/exhaust ratio is low on the exhaust side. A forum community dedicated to vintage Ford Mustang owners and enthusiasts. This is ground into the cam and can't be changed without changing cams. 106 LSA: As the 106 LSA is a tighter LSA, it fails to generate maximum power. That was just a glimpse of the information you were looking for. Idle quality was rough and the vacuum gauge showed only 9.8 in-Hg (inches of mercury). Howards Cams Retro-Fit Hydraulic Roller Camshaft and Lifter Kits CL120325-08. by lazaris Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:18 pm, Post Come join the discussion about restoration, builds, performance, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, maintenance, and more! Lower cylinder pressure is advantageous for your engine. On a torque graph it tends to resemble a triangular shape.. 04 Minor modifications to the factory windage tray were necessary to work with the new stroker assembly. All rights reserved. For your convenience, I am providing a comparison table to give you an overall idea about the comparison. too much for the street? Some of the programs like engine analyzer pro and dynomation seem to like some of the wider lsa's.Thanks again JOE. The only reason I . The 30-30 Duntov is on the high end of the duration recommendation. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. My lift will be about .580" intake and exhaust, with about 230/236 duration with a 1.7 rocker ratio, utilizing a Jesel shaft rocker system. Thanks again. So, you can enjoy a mighty acceleration power at 110 LSA. I just bought a 86b Webcam with 112 lobe centers for my 2276. Hopefully It will do fine in my 2276 mostly drag bug. 07 Though the CNC-ported heads offered plenty of flow, it was necessary to upgrade the supplied valvesprings. How To Properly Replace Ignition Coils, Chevy 350 Ignition Coil Location And Everything About Them, Heres What Causes Your Car to Bog Down When Accelerating. Good luck. The 112-degree cam (red lines) picked up much of the torque, but the big winner was the cam with the tightest lobe separation angle. 11 Doing LS cam swaps on the engine dyno is a breeze, each taking less than 1 hour. I've seen a few comments in threads on here that have said things like "going to the 112LC from the 108LC gives 4lbft more torque at the bottom and 2bhp more at the top" yet this would seem to go against what webcam say on. by SStrokerAce Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:38 pm, Post Well, there can be different reasons for this problem. 4 Impaired episodic memory and semantic knowledge are common in TLE, although dysexecutive traits . - Sheryl Crow. It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong. Maybe even 114. Really wide lobe separation angles are used in boosted applications. This wave tuning is what helps performance engines achieve volumetric efficiencies of more than 100 percent. 13 The three power curves indicate that the wide (120-degree) LSA (green lines) lost considerable torque to the other two cams. This form of short-term memory is supported by the prefrontal cortex (PFC) and is believed to rely on the ability of selectively tuned pyramidal neuron networks to persist in firing even after a to-be-remembered stimulus is removed from the environment. A wider lobe separation angle can often provide more power, but it can also lead to more wear on the engine. That means your engine can produce more power with a minimum amount of fuel combustion. On the surface, the camshaft's job is simpleopen and close the valvesbut beyond that topical description, it's one of the most mysterious and misunderstood engine components. An icon used to represent a menu that can be toggled by interacting with this icon. Contrariwise, 106 LSA car engines are the best choice for people seeking energy-efficient cars with moderate engine power. 10 Tuning the timing curve and fuel from the 42-lb/hr FAST injectors was handled by this Holley HP management system. Test 1 was easy. Now that we have a basic understanding of lobe separation angle, we can put together a test to illustrate just what happens when you make changes to it. The other thing is that you need to tune your ignition advance to maximize your performance. But this is not the only reason. The 290 advertised duration and 114 lobe separation would contribute to a lazy power curve. O onovakind67 Registered Joined Dec 14, 2001 6,242 Posts Pretty much standard for an RV type cam. The intake lobe centerline is measured in crankshaft degrees. You get a better idle, vacuum, and response from a 112o-114o lobe. I've seen a few comments in threads on here that have said things like "going to the 112LC from the 108LC gives 4lbft more torque at the bottom and 2bhp more at the top" yet this would seem to go against what webcam say on. by ANT Mon May 12, 2003 1:47 pm, Post Is There a Sequence? by xstfudonniex Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:21 pm, Post A 112-114 degree lobe center will have a better idle and produce more vacuum with less overlap. In this segment, I am going to compare those two lobe separation angles based on a couple of mechanical factors. That lopey idle that is universally loved, and part of the allure of a tight LSA cam, is actually misfire caused from a combination of exhaust dilution in the intake manifold and poor cylinder filling at idle. What Is the SBC Header Bolt Torque? The lobe separation angle in a natural car engine conveys a considerable impact, especially regarding the maximum torque. It's wet flow tested at 690cfm. In my opinion, the rougher the idle the better! 106 LSA: As you know, the intake and exhaust lobes centerline distance is known as lobe separation angle. Chuck Lawrence of Jon Kaase Racing Engines was asked to give a 520ci BBF a Pro Stock sound, so he went with a 108 LSA in place of a more conventional 112 LSA. by ANT Thu May 15, 2003 6:44 pm, Copyright 2022, S&S Motorsports LLC, All Rights Reserved - Powered by phpBB Forum Software phpBB Limited. If that accessory still does not assist the cam in producing enough vacuum, then as a last resort you can use a vacuum pump. I probably would have gone with 3.55 gears had I knows better.. Lobe Separation or Lobe Centers is another way of expressing the Valve Overlap, which was the term formerly used by cam manufacturers before industry standard verbiage changed. The ported heads were capable of supporting over 700 hp, so we knew they would not be restrictive on our stroker. 15,215. ohio. If you look at any given cam catalog, you will find that the majority of street-oriented cams fall in this range. Good cam for a lower rpm street engine. Now here is where it gets tricky. A wider lobe center will give you more overall torque (comes in earlier and stays later). However, these rules are not absolute. The taller lobe seperation will have a longer powerband but will have to rev higher to make the power than the lower lobe seperation! The result sounded wonderful, but it didnt rev as enthusiastically and it made 30 less horsepower than normal, says Lawrence. A cam in the 110112 LSA range provides the necessary idle lobe to appease gearhead ears with acceptable manifold vacuum to run vacuum-operated accessories. music to your ears? "It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you've got!" I personally prefer to sacrifice the small amount more power for better idle quality. The takeaway from this test is camshaft LSA is a double-edged sword. However, the plentiful exhaust overlap (31 degrees) meant there was lots of exhaust dilution at low engine speed and high vacuum. For Example: A 110-degree lobe separation means that the peak opening points of the Intake and Exhaust lobes is 110 degrees apart. What Are The Wastegate Stuck Open Symptoms? Lobe seperation cant be seperated from duration,the 2 are connected.the old duntov cam had a lot less duration than many new cams so the valve overlap was not extreme and the engine ran with a gentle lope.Increase the duration by 20* and this cam would shake a 283 out of the car at idle,but then increase the lobe seperation by 4* and the motor will have a gentle lope again. ditto with the above. JavaScript is disabled. Its also critical that valve overlap is kept to a minimum as the induction system can create a suction that pulls water into the motor, adds Bolander. 02 The 402-inch stroker short-block combined an aluminum LS2 block with a 4.000-inch crank and 6.125-inch rods. Valve lift will bear weight in any decision regarding LSA. I would say 114-117* would be a normal 1960's stock cam range and 117* to 120* is more what we see on modern engines. Some of the confusion on this subject comes from what the meaning of "bottom" and "top" is to the speaker, I suppose. You can research your heads to find out where yours are, but honestly I don't think it will be worth the effort on a tow vehicle. What brand and what are the specs on your cam, 4-linked72? Thanks for the replies so far. It affects the amount of valve overlap; that is the brief period of time when both the intake and exhaust valves are open. To establish the position of each lobe, the traditional reference point is where the lobes reach max lift. If you shift at 7500-7800 add 4-6 degrees to both intake and exhaust and spread the lobe separation to 108-110. by MELWAY Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:18 pm, Post A cam with 110 lobe center will pull approximately 14-18"of vacuum is borderline for that type of application. Yearh, I have been reading a lot about this issue. http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220, http://www.popularhotrodding.com/en6em_camshaft_specs/lobe_seperation_angle.html. 292S-112: 292/292 - 240/240 - .495/.495 - 112* - 3400-7200. 110 LSA: But, contrarily, at 110 LSA, you dont have to face the problem of engine knocking. It will have slightly higher vacuum at idle, feel smoother through the power curve but have a bit less midrange. Seeking 1/2" ID x 5/8" OD Black Exit Tubing for Radiator Overflow Reservoir. A wide lobe seperation is not always better than a narrow one, or vise versa. We even treated them to some chamber work before installation. It also depends on displacement, some guys will run a bigger cam and widen the LCA to give a better idle but in my opinion it kills power. On larger displacement units 116 to 118 degrees of separation are common. Supercharged and nitrous race engines typically benefit from a wider LSA because they dont require as much overlap for exhaust scavenging as does the naturally aspirated engine, continues Bolander. Depending on the engine combination, the opposite results can occur. Simply put, the lobe separation angle (LSA) is a measurement of how the intake and exhaust lobes are phased with each other. But, you may find it quite shocking that the piston-to-valve clearances decreasing rate raises the chance of damaging the valve by the piston. The lobe separation angle is a comprise of what the engine needs depending on the compression, combustion chamber, rpm, engine size, head volume, and many, many other variables. It made 472.4 lb-ft at peak, a 21.5lb-ft disparity from the 101 cam.

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